Mille Lacs Crossing ideas...

Denis · Post by **Denis** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:48 pm

Sitting at the table in Montana with almost a dozen Minnesotans, we started to bounce ideas around for the crossing. Here's a possibility for the course.

Start:
3 categories: Boarders, Skiers and half-cross.
The boaders start first, then the skiers start, trying to catch up with the boarders who will try to keep the lead. After all the adrenaline pumps have left the starting line, the half-course crossers will have a more chill start and a nice crossing without worrying about being in the way.

In each category, all participants start at the same time. The start line can be long for safety reasons, but it is equalized by a turn around point straight downwind. You can choose the straight line (slow but short) or the angle (fast but long).

Turn points:
The first downwind turn point will space the riders a bit. Then they have to head upwind, and plan strategically how they will tack up.

After the turn point, they head slightly downwind for a sprint to the finish line.

The half-course upwind mark can be set cross-wind with the finish line to make an easier crossing.

The turn points can be made of single line kites anchored with long colorful tails and such as this one:

They can be anchored down with an ice-screw.

Thoughts?

steveb · Post by **steveb** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:34 pm

A downwind start causes wind blanketing of the kites by the other kites in the air, with enough riders the leaders could see their kites fall out of the sky.
It also would not cause the separation of the riders an upwind start does.
I like the idea but reverse the course. Upwind /across /upwind

Tighe · Post by **Tighe** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:41 pm

Funny I was just going to post something about the crossing and use the same Topic Heading, though with a slightly different slant...less course related and more communication, logistics, etc.

I think this discussion will be fruitful for Mike and the race committee.

A few comments.

Why a downwind start mark and not an upwind start mark? Seems like having a lot of kites heading downwind as aggressively as they can, while not depowering their kites (ie. keeping them in the sky) might be the most dangerous leg of the course.

What was the problem with the individually timed start? I thought that worked pretty smoothly on the last few winter crossings. (each rider has their own time)
Though the thought of racing neck and neck is appealing as well. I'd be up for either.

I like the kite as a marker. Jason had that one at the Rally race a few years ago that could be seen for miles.

A few points that have come up in discussions with others is that the communications throughout the weekend can be improved. Just having a map like you've drawn above overlaid on a map of the lake on a white board at the racers meeting would really help. I agree.

Also having rules written on a white board somewhere would help.

Using kites to communicate the signals would be great. The horns and flags are not adequate for the distances involved.

I think Mike is open to any and all input. Let's keep it positive, and develop a protocol that we can use going forward.

Tighe · Post by **Tighe** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:43 pm

Damn, unintentionally I agreed with Steve again. ; )

Denis · Post by **Denis** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:49 pm

How about something like this?

steveb · Post by **steveb** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:11 pm

Perfect, drop the reach mark down a little so the returns not as far down wind, try to make both legs the same angle and you're perfect.
You've got to allow for the possibility of things like the ice storm, remember how hard it was to keep the kite in the sky ,when it was thick with ice, the further you got off the wind. Upwind they'd stay in the air fine, on the trip home it was tough getting the kite to climb, less line tension as you're ridiing towards the kite.
Also if the course has a bias one way you can guarantee the wind will shift on your diagram to the right which would make the return trip almost dead downwind, by having a balanced out and back you reduce the chance of a windshift goofing one of your legs.

Tighe · Post by **Tighe** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:57 pm

Looks good.

I might suggest having the short course turn around in line with the full course. Since the majority just follow the person ahead it would make it easier for riders on both courses.

Can we make that upwind mark on the far side of the lake?

Most likely we'll need to mirror that diagram along the horizontal plane since the winds will most likely be either South or South East.

pete168 · Post by **pete168** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:40 pm

I like the idea of using marker kites. Simple sled type kites could hold up single color streamers to identify start, finish, and short course turnaround points. Much easier to see and not have to worry about not understand someone as you whoosh on by!

Pete

Stroh · Post by **Stroh** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:33 am

I agree with tighe I like the individual times... I don't see how you could get 30 kiters going without giving some riders a Huge advantage.
Most of our leaders have a less than ONE second between them.
People just freked out from the sumer cross going bad. but we didn't have bibs with #'s we have that in the winter... and summer for now on

skiers first then boarders then half course people. skiers are faster, haveing them go after boarders could cause problems.

steve, you just need to fly inflatable kites in an ice storm.

Jon

champlin · Post by **champlin** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:37 am

Sorry guys and gals, it's an out and back no matter what the heck you do, were the crossings that bad in the past that we want to change it? I thought the whole idea was that it be the same concept every year so that people would know what to train for? Leave it as it was why even expend the energy to change it now, if it's new ideas try and think of something to do in between or if there was no wind, thats really teh challenge.

Denis · Post by **Denis** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:30 am

Concerning the start, the idea was to have everyone on a very long start line at the same time. Since there is a straight upwind point, you can choose the shortest but slowest path (in the middle of the starting line), or faster but long path (starting at the end of the starting line). If you're really good at carving upwind and you planned your moves well, you'll move ahead of the pack and take the lead, no matter where you start on the line.

It's not that the previous crossings were broken or anything, people sitting at the table were just trying to minimize the "parade" factor like Mike B would say. You have to be fast *and* smart to win the race.

Randy threw in the idea of launching the slowest riders first (boarders) to have a game of cat and mouse with skiers chasing. That's commonly done in other races. He also mentionned launching the rookies last to minimize the tension.

For events in between, we were tossing around the idea of a kiter cross like the one they had in Montana. Short and lots of fun. Stay tuned for that one...

Tighe · Post by **Tighe** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:07 am

I'd be willing to try the mass start, though I think the coordination of getting everyone lined up and ready to go spread out along a super long start line seems like a nightmare. How much room would you give between kiters? How do you handle a false start? Having said all that, the concept of true racing, against other riders vs the clock would be a bit more of an adrenalin buzz.

As far as course changes, this course isn't that different Scott. The second Annual Crossing, took us on a very similar course, though as Steve mentioned the wind change made the last leg brutal.

I think it is great to discuss this and get some options hashed out, but bottom line just like all the last Crossings, mother nature will dictate the course that Mike chooses. Last years loop was chosen because it was unclear how long we'd have clear skies and good visibility. The first year we shot almost all the way across the top of the lake because it was clear blue overhead. We were very very lucky in Crossing 2 when it went to minimal visibility that we got everyone off the lake. Having some options that take into consideration the different conditions that might exist would be helpful I'm sure.

As far as other things to do....yes, yes, yes. Last year we had a whole dialog that talked about some great options. Unfortunately the conditions on Saturday made most of them impossible.

We talked about Speed runs using a radar gun, longest jump, kiter cross, and I don't know what else. I know Mike is open and supportive to any of these happening. Someone just needs to take the ball and run with it (keeping him informed obviously). I've heard we can get the radar gun again if we want. Let's get creative. Specially if there is no or very light winds. I personally like games. Anyone else play Ultimate? If the surface is decent enough how about boardless downwind body drag races?

champlin · Post by **champlin** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:49 pm

You guys have a great time, I'll look forward to the pictures!!

Tighe · Post by **Tighe** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:52 pm

You not going Scott? Why not?

steveb · Post by **steveb** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:36 pm

The type of race where you chase people is called pursuit race, you need to run a race to work out how much faster or slower people are than one another. Having cataloged the time differences you then have a race handicapping the fast people. WHat's a lot of fun is it gives newbies and people with smaller kites a chance to really experience the excitement of a race, they can see people catching and they have to stop the overtakes, what's nice is the slower people can and will win.

Denis , since I'm a nice guy I'll give away some tactical information, every start line is different depending on the angle the line is set to the wind, in the past when I ran races I would set the line so the end away from the start boat ( position) was favoured, that way you can distribute the racers accross a larger area. The way to tell which end is favoured is go to one end of the line, ride along the line towards the other end and note how close you are to the wind, go to the other end and repeat the process. The end of the line when you were riding towards it closest to the wind is the end of the line which is favoured for starting from.
Having established the favoured end of the line you have to keep an eye on the wind direction because if it swings left or right it will change which end is favoured before the start. These are the things which make wind racing fun is you have to be contantly aware of the changes in the wind as it can make or break a race. The longer the line is the more important it is to start at the right end, I've seen lines where being at the right end equaled 100s of yds advantage as soon as the start gun went.

Denis · Post by **Denis** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:11 pm

Steve,

I think that you're right. In talking, Mike B and I were trying to make the kite crossing more like sailboat racing I suppose. So, being in tune with the wind and the fine changes plays a huge role. Again, besides pure speed you have to be smart and experienced.

Scott,

I am not saying that the final course will be like what I am proposing. Mike Fox can do what he wants with the course. It's his race. I am just throwing ideas to motivate some thought and get people excited about the crossing.

champlin · Post by **champlin** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:21 pm

I leave for Mexico this Saturday for a week and catch the red eye back Sunday morning I come in at 1:30 so I don't think I will be in shape to drive up north that day, I wished I could have been there but the warm 80 degree temps I'll like a little more. I'm going up and down the caost to kite so it will be a different experience for us this time, Isla Blanca with Ikarus will be fun! You all have a great time and be safe!

Uffe · Post by **Uffe** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:10 pm

Here's my idea of an ideal crossing course.

Starting zone, just like in windsurfing racing, but with huge line angeld so it is fair to the wind direction, downwind bouy much further out than upwind bouy, 5 min warning horn.

Start with a fairly short, full speed reaching mark a mile out, then a 1 mile upwinder back towards shor (for spectators and crew to see better, then the endurance test starts and you head out across the lake.

I am so looking forward to it this year, can't wait, just some ideas, not what needs to happen, I'm going to have a blast nomatter what the format is... Full speed starts with tactics involved makes it fun though.

/ Uffe
USWE 22

Tighe · Post by **Tighe** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:26 pm

I like it though we gotta be careful relying on horns. Horns and Flags/kites are best (auditory and Visual) because with helmets on it can be tricky to hear the horns.

Denis · Post by **Denis** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:31 pm

I like, I like.

Except that the riders upwind on the start line still have an advantage though.

Steve,
even with launching the slower riders first, you still time people based on the group they started in. The rider with the shortest time still wins but it gives a surge of adrenaline in the middle of the race as boarders will fight to keep the lead and skiers will fight to catch up. Skiers will finish ahead in a shorter amount of time, but I think that it will have motivated the whole group to go faster and fight harder.