Hello all. At Ramsey Sunday I had two Close Encounters of the Powered Kind with boaters, one positive, and one negative. I'd appreciate advice on how to make the negative one less negative if -- when -- it happens in the future.
I'll tell them in reverse order, to make me look better. The positive one was when I was blasting full out towards the N shore, and a big power boat was putzing along on a collision course. I peeked around my sail to see what he was going to do, the boater suddenly saw me, and peeled off sharply. I shouted "Thank you" and waved. He looked startled to hear me yell, looked up, realized I wasn't cursing, and smiled and waved back. I tacked, slowed down a second to let him pass in front of me, and took off back the other way. Everyone happy, noone hurt, and positive vibes for sailors from him, and towards power boats from me because he yielded right of way.
The negative one was when I was schlogging along in the middle of the lake and a power boat was ambling across the line of windsurfers quite a distance in front of me, easily going to clear the line before any of us got to him. Suddenly a gust came, and seconds later I was in the straps, blasting -- and on a course that would lead to a collision with the power boat if we both kept on at present speed. He kept inching along, not changing anything. Suddenly someone on his boat saw me, and yelled something to him, so he cut his throttle way back, and I flew past his prow. As I went by, he glared, said something, and revved his engine briefly and threateningly. I looked back over my shoulder, glared back at him, and shouted "Right of Way". Bad vibe for me, bad vibe for him. Plus: I made him look bad in front of his kids, and he got away with threating a windsurfer with a deadly weapon with no exchange of ideas or learning.
So: how do you handle those situations? I'm hoping not very many people will suggest "don't go on the plane and take off when there's a boat in front of you", because if I had had to do that all day Sunday it would have been a dull day of windsurfing indeed. OTOH, I'm pretty sure there must be better solutions than what actually happened.
Suggestions?
John
Getting along with Power Boaters
Moderator: MK
-
johnbaker17
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:23 am
- Location: White Bear Lake, MN
On Saturday, I took a friend out from Bellaire for his second time windsurfing. He spent a lot of time in the water, as expected, but he was most frustrated by the boat traffic around him. There were a few boaters who thought they might be able to help him out by running tight turns around him and watching as he struggled to hold his sail up and eventually fell due to the waves. They just didn't get it and I yelled at a few of them for getting so close to a struggling windsurfer. Fortunately, I was able to run a kind of guard pattern around him, intercepting and turning away any boats that looked like they intended to travel too close to him. It was good turning practice for me, but sucked for him. The WBYC was having their races as usual, so I think some of the boats felt they were restricted to that part of the lake to go back and forth in. I had to fend off the same boats over and over. It was very frustrating to say the least.
John Baker
John Baker
This problem is going to become something bigger if we don't do something soon. Most of the time when I noticed boaters getting in people’s way the sheriff was sitting there watching it happen and not doing anything about it. 
I think if we try to educate the sheriff’s about the dangers of kiting they might try to help us out. But they could decide that they don't want us launching off the beach. 
Another potential problem I noticed was that people like to anchor their boats right in front of the beach that we launch from.
to hurt people all it would take is a lull to hit and the kite could fall out of the air and then power back up and take someone’s head off.
I sure someone has a plan on how to make this get better with out sacrificing a lake
other than that it was a killer day on Da Bear.
I can't wait for more SE winds on a cloudy day 
I think if we try to educate the sheriff’s about the dangers of kiting they might try to help us out. But they could decide that they don't want us launching off the beach. Another potential problem I noticed was that people like to anchor their boats right in front of the beach that we launch from.
to hurt people all it would take is a lull to hit and the kite could fall out of the air and then power back up and take someone’s head off.I sure someone has a plan on how to make this get better with out sacrificing a lake
other than that it was a killer day on Da Bear.
I can't wait for more SE winds on a cloudy day "Most of the time when I noticed boaters getting in people’s way the sheriff was sitting there watching it happen and not doing anything about it." comments like this make me wonder if enyone else thought that you might be in the way and the sherrif should be talking to you. The fact is, the sheriff, the people that use their boats, and the swimmers should not have to make any kind of sacrafice to the way they use the lake and to suggest talking to the powers that be to come up with somekind of plan is crazy. Do you think that the hundreds of lake usere should pack it in when the wind picks up so the dozen or so kiters and windsurfers could takeover? It will only be a matter of time before someone with enough time and influence has kiting banned from the lake, and complaining or petioning for more rights or room will only expidite the inevitable. Until then be very careful and mindful of the fact that we are way out numbered and people are just looking for a reason to pull the plug on us.
Whoa, maybe the question should be asked, "What about right-of-way rules for sailing craft vs. power boats?". I think that may be the context of the post. Kiters are still the new kids on the block (sorry for the reference). Aren't sailboards over 9 feet in length required to have a State license or sticker? Did this law get dropped? I remember back in the late 80's (when windsuring was WAY more popular) it seemed to be an issue. Also, coming from a road cycling back ground right of way doesn't mean jack when you've got something on the order a few tons bearing down on you...I get the same feeling when I'm out on the lake - even more so when I'm schloggin' - I feel like a sitting duck.
It can be difficult and certainly inconvenient to co-exist with power boats but it is something that every sailor has to deal with. WBL has some particular issues that make it more difficult - constantly varying wind speeds, a significant amount of boat traffic, and no rules for the direction of boat travel.
I personally didn't have a hard time with any boats at Ramsey on Sunday, but I can certainly see how problems can arise. I grew up sailing on a small lake with lots of boat traffic, but at leaset the boat traffic all had to go counterclockwise around the lake. On WBL the boats are travelling all different directions so you have to be more aware of your surroundings. The varying windspeeds also mean that sailors are accelerating and decelerating rapdily, which means you can be on a safe line one moment and on a collision course the next.
In addition, many power boaters do not realize that a windsurfer accelerates and decelerates very quickly so they do not constantly survey their surroundings. For example, a power boater can look around and see a windsurfer blazing along and assume they will be clear when their paths cross. however, the boater may not be paying attention as the windsurfer falls off of a plane. suddenly the boat and the windsurfer are bound for a collision and the windsurfer has very limited mobility (since the windsurfer is no longer on a plane).
It seems reasonable to me that power boats should give way to sailboats all the time since power boats are more mobile. however, this is not how it works. both parties are responsible for co-existing. there will always be encounters with power boats but it is always best to keep such encounters limited. I believe that if the sheriff observes "wreckless" boating, the sheriff will intervene. however, i dont think the sheriff is obligated to intervene when a windsurfer is having a hard time negotiating the wake of boats. The more cautious and curteous windsurfers/kiters are when dealing with boats, the better the chances that negative issues will arise.
Just remember, the first rule is always to avoid a collision at all costs. After that, I think it is supposed to be the standard starboard rule. In any case, you should always be cautious - assume that the boat can't see you and try to establish your line of travel early.
I personally didn't have a hard time with any boats at Ramsey on Sunday, but I can certainly see how problems can arise. I grew up sailing on a small lake with lots of boat traffic, but at leaset the boat traffic all had to go counterclockwise around the lake. On WBL the boats are travelling all different directions so you have to be more aware of your surroundings. The varying windspeeds also mean that sailors are accelerating and decelerating rapdily, which means you can be on a safe line one moment and on a collision course the next.
In addition, many power boaters do not realize that a windsurfer accelerates and decelerates very quickly so they do not constantly survey their surroundings. For example, a power boater can look around and see a windsurfer blazing along and assume they will be clear when their paths cross. however, the boater may not be paying attention as the windsurfer falls off of a plane. suddenly the boat and the windsurfer are bound for a collision and the windsurfer has very limited mobility (since the windsurfer is no longer on a plane).
It seems reasonable to me that power boats should give way to sailboats all the time since power boats are more mobile. however, this is not how it works. both parties are responsible for co-existing. there will always be encounters with power boats but it is always best to keep such encounters limited. I believe that if the sheriff observes "wreckless" boating, the sheriff will intervene. however, i dont think the sheriff is obligated to intervene when a windsurfer is having a hard time negotiating the wake of boats. The more cautious and curteous windsurfers/kiters are when dealing with boats, the better the chances that negative issues will arise.
Just remember, the first rule is always to avoid a collision at all costs. After that, I think it is supposed to be the standard starboard rule. In any case, you should always be cautious - assume that the boat can't see you and try to establish your line of travel early.
Adam Anderson
John, and everyone else:
"Don't go on the plane and take off when there's a boat in front of you."
Seriously, I hate to say it, but you shouldn't. There is something to be said for being predictable, regardless of the perceived right-of-way rule. Adam's mention of 'avoiding collision at all cost' is an actual right-of-way guideline. A sudden change in speed is not predictable. You may be able to read the wind gusts, but boaters can not.
As for the rest of the experiences, every more-or-less seem spot on. I've been sailing White Bear for a long time now (not as long as some, but longer than most) and busy weekends like this are just a huge hassle. I try to stay away. The windier the day becomes, the more it clears boaters off the lake, anyhow.
Boaters (and the Sheriff) are not well educated on boating right-of-way. It is, regretably, better to stay away from Ramsey on busy days like this - they just don't occur that often. Most other days and at other beaches it's not nearly as bad. Bellaire was probably pretty rough this weekend with the A boats zooming by every so often - normally it ain't so bad.
I stopped by the beach on Sunday and it was an absolute zoo. Plus, there were at least 4 kites in and around Ramsey. On top of it all, the wind looked a little fluky - as it tends to get on hot summer days. That is just asking for trouble.
If you do run into a conflict out there, just remember to take the high road. You'll do more harm than good by shouting out anything negative to a crappy boater. Just ignore the casual jerk.
If you have a true conflict or issue, calmly seek out the sheriff yourself and explain the situation before the pissy boater complains first and makes the windsurfers and kiters out to be the bad people. We'll get a lot further with the authorities by being the calm and communicative ones. Windsurfers are usually laid back enough that we aren't the ones bringing issues to the sheriff, but we lose out in the end because of that.
-Coach
"Don't go on the plane and take off when there's a boat in front of you."
Seriously, I hate to say it, but you shouldn't. There is something to be said for being predictable, regardless of the perceived right-of-way rule. Adam's mention of 'avoiding collision at all cost' is an actual right-of-way guideline. A sudden change in speed is not predictable. You may be able to read the wind gusts, but boaters can not.
As for the rest of the experiences, every more-or-less seem spot on. I've been sailing White Bear for a long time now (not as long as some, but longer than most) and busy weekends like this are just a huge hassle. I try to stay away. The windier the day becomes, the more it clears boaters off the lake, anyhow.
Boaters (and the Sheriff) are not well educated on boating right-of-way. It is, regretably, better to stay away from Ramsey on busy days like this - they just don't occur that often. Most other days and at other beaches it's not nearly as bad. Bellaire was probably pretty rough this weekend with the A boats zooming by every so often - normally it ain't so bad.
I stopped by the beach on Sunday and it was an absolute zoo. Plus, there were at least 4 kites in and around Ramsey. On top of it all, the wind looked a little fluky - as it tends to get on hot summer days. That is just asking for trouble.
If you do run into a conflict out there, just remember to take the high road. You'll do more harm than good by shouting out anything negative to a crappy boater. Just ignore the casual jerk.
If you have a true conflict or issue, calmly seek out the sheriff yourself and explain the situation before the pissy boater complains first and makes the windsurfers and kiters out to be the bad people. We'll get a lot further with the authorities by being the calm and communicative ones. Windsurfers are usually laid back enough that we aren't the ones bringing issues to the sheriff, but we lose out in the end because of that.
-Coach
-
aransavage
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:10 pm
- Location: Hopkins, MN
Calhoun..
Threads like this one make you realize just how lucky we are to have Calhoun. Getting to the lake on a hot, busy summer afternoon and seeing only sails and canoeists is reassuring that occasionally our parks board and local gov't does get it right....
Andrew
Andrew
Most of Coach's message I think is great stuff, and I'll meditate on putting it in practice myself.
One part makes me uncomfortable, though: the implication that since there are lots of power boaters out on WBL on lovely weekends we windsurfers might feel we shouldn't go there. Of course, if the boaters reduce our enjoyment to where we don't want to sail on a given day, noone is going to force us to sail! On the other hand, I think it's an important principle that we windsurfers have the right to sail safely and within the rules, and personally I'm willing to put up with the waves and the occasional conflict to enjoy that right. If we all decide to cede Saturdays to the powerboats, eventually they'll take Sundays too. Once they get the whole weekend, eventually they'll be out on Fridays, too ...
This recalls the vibrant debate within the cycling community about whether cyclists should use busy roads. Fast cyclists who like to race and don't care so much where they go often argue we should just lobby for good bike paths that we can use out of the way of the cars. Cyclists who want to commute often argue we need to preserve the right of way for cyclists to ride on city streets -- if they want to. I'm in the camp of human-powered vehicles preserving their rights to be out in the mix with gas-powered vehicles.
I dream of a world where there are so many human powered vehicles that the gas powered vehicles have to make concessions. For now, though, we have to make sure human powered vehicles at least can participate when they want to!
John
One part makes me uncomfortable, though: the implication that since there are lots of power boaters out on WBL on lovely weekends we windsurfers might feel we shouldn't go there. Of course, if the boaters reduce our enjoyment to where we don't want to sail on a given day, noone is going to force us to sail! On the other hand, I think it's an important principle that we windsurfers have the right to sail safely and within the rules, and personally I'm willing to put up with the waves and the occasional conflict to enjoy that right. If we all decide to cede Saturdays to the powerboats, eventually they'll take Sundays too. Once they get the whole weekend, eventually they'll be out on Fridays, too ...
This recalls the vibrant debate within the cycling community about whether cyclists should use busy roads. Fast cyclists who like to race and don't care so much where they go often argue we should just lobby for good bike paths that we can use out of the way of the cars. Cyclists who want to commute often argue we need to preserve the right of way for cyclists to ride on city streets -- if they want to. I'm in the camp of human-powered vehicles preserving their rights to be out in the mix with gas-powered vehicles.
I dream of a world where there are so many human powered vehicles that the gas powered vehicles have to make concessions. For now, though, we have to make sure human powered vehicles at least can participate when they want to!
John
-
SCOTT RIDOUT
- Posts: 651
- Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 12:45 pm
- Location: CHAMPLIN, MINNESOTA
I used to be a boat owner and in owning a boat I did the logical thing and took a power squadran class on boat safety, both my wife and I did especially that we were going to be on the river allot we needed to know the rules as not to get in a troubling situation. The first rule is always the right rule, avoid a collision at all costs no matter who has the right of way, if you have the means to get out of the way and you collide with someone because you thought you had the right away and were waiting for them to yield to you, you are at fault. Another rule and this is an important one, a boat or sailboat that is not motorized has the right of way no matter what unless the first rule happens, which means if you are in a sail boat or a canoe or are a windsurfer you have the right of way over a powered boat end of story. If a sherrif is out there and see's something happen and does not do anything about it, there should be some sort of recourse for the sherrif, he is out there to protect and make sure everyone follows the rules baoters and sailors. So if a powerboat is on line with you and does not yeild after seeing you they are in the wrong. The other guy is right if you give the powerboaters a foot they WILL try and take the whole thing.
John - the decision to not use WBL on busy days is a totally personal call on my part... You are right, we shouldn't be forced off the lake.
However, something I didn't elaborate on was the fact that the wind usually isn't that good on the days where the lake is busy. I did mention that the windier it gets the more it pushes the boaters off the water. But, there are those days where the wind is right around 15-ish - right where it's good for us and still tolerable by boaters. Even still - it's a hot summer day - the wind is probably fairly gusty and fluky.
So, for me, a busy lake is usually a sign that the wind isn't that good anyhow. It's a hot, gusty, summer day with fluky wind and a sea of humanity at every beach. I'm just to the point where I've got other things to do.
-Coach
However, something I didn't elaborate on was the fact that the wind usually isn't that good on the days where the lake is busy. I did mention that the windier it gets the more it pushes the boaters off the water. But, there are those days where the wind is right around 15-ish - right where it's good for us and still tolerable by boaters. Even still - it's a hot summer day - the wind is probably fairly gusty and fluky.
So, for me, a busy lake is usually a sign that the wind isn't that good anyhow. It's a hot, gusty, summer day with fluky wind and a sea of humanity at every beach. I'm just to the point where I've got other things to do.
-Coach
-
steveb
- Posts: 2146
- Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:31 pm
- Location: sblain@frontiernet.net
The fact is when it comes to a collision boardheads will lose.
I remember John luc being hit, I think they fractured his skull. I remember Ingo being hit, they wrecked his board.
Why's the sheriff there? Lets face facts, he's looking for intoxicated boaters and underage drinkers.
Most boaters skill level is the driving test they took for their car, you need to expect them to do wrong, you need to ride defensively. If you don't have eye contact with a boat driver as you move towards one another, tack,gybe, jump whatever just don't force your rights over a guy who does not know them.
Stroh, John if there's people all over the place on a Ramsey overflow day you shouldn't be putting the kite in the air. Just too many chances to get the sport banned. Kiters if WBL's bad drive 33miles more and come to Cedar, it's always quiet.Give me a call at 715 248 7643 and I'll give you a wind report.
Be safe, be cool, have fun.
I remember John luc being hit, I think they fractured his skull. I remember Ingo being hit, they wrecked his board.
Why's the sheriff there? Lets face facts, he's looking for intoxicated boaters and underage drinkers.
Most boaters skill level is the driving test they took for their car, you need to expect them to do wrong, you need to ride defensively. If you don't have eye contact with a boat driver as you move towards one another, tack,gybe, jump whatever just don't force your rights over a guy who does not know them.
Stroh, John if there's people all over the place on a Ramsey overflow day you shouldn't be putting the kite in the air. Just too many chances to get the sport banned. Kiters if WBL's bad drive 33miles more and come to Cedar, it's always quiet.Give me a call at 715 248 7643 and I'll give you a wind report.
Be safe, be cool, have fun.
-
steveb
- Posts: 2146
- Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:31 pm
- Location: sblain@frontiernet.net